Question about time belt (toothed belt)

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amperland
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Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by amperland »

Hello all.

My girlfriend has just purchased a petrol 2018 VW Polo SE 1.0 TSI 95PS (does anyone know which engine code that is by the way?). I downloaded a workshop manual from TrueGear but this is what it says regarding the timing belt, or as VW call it, the "toothed belt":
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (65.65 KiB) Viewed 2624 times
The first two cells only appear to apply to diesel engines. Why isn't there a service interval (in miles and/or years) in the cells relating to the petrol engine?

Someone clear this up for me.

Thank you!
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by RUM4MO »

One explanation could be, VW Group intend that the cam belt in the EA211 generation of engines, and probably any newer versions of that engine family, it a "belt for life" - and as such, has not been included with other parts for periodic replacement.

Now that does not mean that it will last for ever, what it does mean, like many other parts, it will last until it fails, which, depending on your view wrt preventative maintenance, might not give you a warm feeling as if or when it fails, serious engine damage will take place.

I would hope that in line with this "longer life" in terms of cam belt, the tensioning roller will also have been "beefed up" and hopefully normally outlast the engine, as in the past many cam drive failures with VW Group products have been prompted/provoked by other items failing and forcing a cam belt failure, one of them, the water pump has been removed from this drive train so that is good in my world.

To round up, my wife has a 2015 6C Polo with the 1.2TSI 110PS version of this engine, or from the same engine family, I will consider getting the belt and tensioner replaced at many 7 or 8 years and 50K miles. I service my own cars and tend to carry out all or most repairs when required, the VW Group workshop instruction on this area is to examine the belt over its entire length from year 5 or 6 onwards and repeat that examination every following year at service time. So that inspection is intended to catch any issues before they cause engine damage, although the driver would be well advised to pay attention to any new abnormal noises coming from the engine area.

Edit:- I come from a background of running VW Group small cars with petrol engines with belt driven cams, firstly with a 4 year 60K mile change recommendation from VWUK, but elsewhere in the world it seemed to be a lot longer in time and higher in miles, secondly with a car that had 5 year 60K mile change recommendation from VWUK, but elsewhere in the world it seemed to be a lot longer - although I am not aware of what the official VW Group workshop manuals advised. With both these cars, which had the water pump within the cam belt drive train system, at every other belt change at the 4 or 5 year periods, I included a water pump change as well - obviously including the tensioner and additionally the top roller which was extra to the VW Group cam belt kit of parts. When buying that 2015 Polo new I really did expect that VW Group had made this area of the engine a bit more robust, which it seems that they have done.
amperland
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by amperland »

RUM4MO wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:40 amOne explanation could be, VW Group intend that the cam belt in the EA211 generation of engines, and probably any newer versions of that engine family, it a "belt for life" - and as such, has not been included with other parts for periodic replacement.

Now that does not mean that it will last for ever, what it does mean, like many other parts, it will last until it fails, which, depending on your view wrt preventative maintenance, might not give you a warm feeling as if or when it fails, serious engine damage will take place.

I would hope that in line with this "longer life" in terms of cam belt, the tensioning roller will also have been "beefed up" and hopefully normally outlast the engine, as in the past many cam drive failures with VW Group products have been prompted/provoked by other items failing and forcing a cam belt failure, one of them, the water pump has been removed from this drive train so that is good in my world.

To round up, my wife has a 2015 6C Polo with the 1.2TSI 110PS version of this engine, or from the same engine family, I will consider getting the belt and tensioner replaced at many 7 or 8 years and 50K miles. I service my own cars and tend to carry out all or most repairs when required, the VW Group workshop instruction on this area is to examine the belt over its entire length from year 5 or 6 onwards and repeat that examination every following year at service time. So that inspection is intended to catch any issues before they cause engine damage, although the driver would be well advised to pay attention to any new abnormal noises coming from the engine area.

Edit:- I come from a background of running VW Group small cars with petrol engines with belt driven cams, firstly with a 4 year 60K mile change recommendation from VWUK, but elsewhere in the world it seemed to be a lot longer in time and higher in miles, secondly with a car that had 5 year 60K mile change recommendation from VWUK, but elsewhere in the world it seemed to be a lot longer - although I am not aware of what the official VW Group workshop manuals advised. With both these cars, which had the water pump within the cam belt drive train system, at every other belt change at the 4 or 5 year periods, I included a water pump change as well - obviously including the tensioner and additionally the top roller which was extra to the VW Group cam belt kit of parts. When buying that 2015 Polo new I really did expect that VW Group had made this area of the engine a bit more robust, which it seems that they have done.
Hello, RUM4MO. So what you're saying basically is that it's a rubber belt designed to last the life of the car but the be on the safe side I should consider replacing it after 8 years or so?
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by Andy Beats »

I had the same question about our daughter's Seat Mii, which is basically a VW UP.
It's 8 years old, 58000 miles and not had the belt done.
That was making my eye twitch, so I went onto a forum and a specialist said to leave it alone and if the belt failed he would "supply and fit a new engine for free" for me :D
It's maybe time for us all to stop listening to old fashioned beliefs on the life of parts and believing the manufacturers.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by CarbonChaos »

A lot of the modern Ford 1.0 engines have a timing belt interval of 10 yrs or 150K and these belts are considerably narrower than the VW belts.

That said stuff does have a habit of breaking when you least want it :|
amperland
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by amperland »

CarbonChaos wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:10 pm A lot of the modern Ford 1.0 engines have a timing belt interval of 10 yrs or 150K and these belts are considerably narrower than the VW belts.

That said stuff does have a habit of breaking when you least want it :|
That's reassuring. The first part at least.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by monkeyhanger »

Most of the rationale around changing timing belts at 80k miles/120k km is to do with the water pump. No real issues with the timing belt itself, but VW were (maybe they still are, haven't looked) fitting crappy plastic water pumps that were driving off the timing belt. When the pump seizes, it shreds the belt. For this reason, VW used to insist on changing the water pump with the belt at 80k miles.

Perhaps we have more resilient metal water pumps now(I believe they are/were available as a replacement for water pumps that failed under warranty.

Its possible that other markets don't get the same terms for replacement as they get a better water pump fitted as standard that is far less likely to seize.

If I was keeping a VAG car to more than 80k miles and had a plastic water pump, i'd replace the belt and pump at the defined interval.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by RUM4MO »

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:49 am Most of the rationale around changing timing belts at 80k miles/120k km is to do with the water pump. No real issues with the timing belt itself, but VW were (maybe they still are, haven't looked) fitting crappy plastic water pumps that were driving off the timing belt. When the pump seizes, it shreds the belt. For this reason, VW used to insist on changing the water pump with the belt at 80k miles.

Perhaps we have more resilient metal water pumps now(I believe they are/were available as a replacement for water pumps that failed under warranty.

Its possible that other markets don't get the same terms for replacement as they get a better water pump fitted as standard that is far less likely to seize.

If I was keeping a VAG car to more than 80k miles and had a plastic water pump, i'd replace the belt and pump at the defined interval.
This family of engines don't have the water pump driven by the cam belt.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by monkeyhanger »

RUM4MO wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:58 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:49 am Most of the rationale around changing timing belts at 80k miles/120k km is to do with the water pump. No real issues with the timing belt itself, but VW were (maybe they still are, haven't looked) fitting crappy plastic water pumps that were driving off the timing belt. When the pump seizes, it shreds the belt. For this reason, VW used to insist on changing the water pump with the belt at 80k miles.

Perhaps we have more resilient metal water pumps now(I believe they are/were available as a replacement for water pumps that failed under warranty.

Its possible that other markets don't get the same terms for replacement as they get a better water pump fitted as standard that is far less likely to seize.

If I was keeping a VAG car to more than 80k miles and had a plastic water pump, i'd replace the belt and pump at the defined interval.
This family of engines don't have the water pump driven by the cam belt.
That's a relief. Wonder whether my A4's 2.0TDI 190 engine has a cambelt driven water pump - will have to look into that if I'm keeping it long term. Just about yo get its second service at a smidge under 15k miles. It's done 4.5k miles since its first service last March.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by RUM4MO »

amperland wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:36 pm Hello, RUM4MO. So what you're saying basically is that it's a rubber belt designed to last the life of the car but the be on the safe side I should consider replacing it after 8 years or so?
As with everything in life, it is easy to take advice from others - and claim "not my fault" when things go bad, but what you have written above is presently the plan that I intend to follow wrt the cam belt on an EA211 family petrol engine.

Many many other car manufacturers have been giving high years/miles periods advice for cam belts with either none or few cars failing early, I accept that.

I think that the recommended change period for the 1982 Ford (Erika) Escort CVH was 3 years or xyK miles, a neighbour went over that and paid the price, so I complied and ended up with a seriously over tightened belt which would have lead to an early water pump failure, they re-tensioned that belt after I complained, so that event proved doing the right thing only works when or if it can be replaced correctly.

I ran a 1991 VX Cav GSI 2000 16 4X4 (it had all that on the boot!), it left the factory with maybe a 96K miles or 12 year belt change period being advised. In maybe 1996 or so, I was reading my usual car mag and it casually informed me that GM had changed the cam belt change period of that "red top" engine to more like 45K and 6 years - I did not need any nudging to phone up and book it in!

I ran a 2000 B5 VW Passat 4Motion from new, its belt change advice was a bit vague from VW as the dealership did not really recognise that engine as it was an Audi one, I played safe and tried booking it in at 6 years/50K miles, lots of laughter from the service dept after I questioned their "it does not have a belt driven cam - it has a chain", backed up by the service manager, so seeing as I was being a pain in forcing the issue to book it in, the master tech was brought out, and he agreed "it is a belt" - so even he got it wrong, I gave up and booked it into a sort of Independent Audi VW service garage, but one that was on the official Audi and VW website list of service points, they happily took it in and replaced the belt and water pump.

There are lots of tales of people running PD engines for very long periods/miles with no issues - so some people are lucky.

Finally as I tend to ask about the condition of parts removed nowadays with VW Group cam belt changes, and up to date I've always been told that the parts removed have been to good serviceable condition - so in my mind, they have been replaced in time, which is always my plan.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by amperland »

I emailed my local VW dealer regarding this and they replied with this information:
polo_timing.PNG
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Why is this not in the owner's manual or even the service manual? Madness.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by monkeyhanger »

amperland wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:01 pm I emailed my local VW dealer regarding this and they replied with this information:

polo_timing.PNG

Why is this not in the owner's manual or even the service manual? Madness.
Perhaps it's not official guidance, but the recommendation of someone that wants to relieve you of £700? :wink:

5 years seems a pretty short life for a timing belt these days, appropriate for a car from the 80s.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:51 pm Perhaps it's not official guidance, but the recommendation of someone that wants to relieve you of £700? :wink:
5 years seems a pretty short life for a timing belt these days, appropriate for a car from the 80s.
This, 100%
God it annoys me how willing dealers are to rip people off.
Bring on electric cars and far less opportunity for them to do so.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by SRGTD »

Andy Beats wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:11 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:51 pm Perhaps it's not official guidance, but the recommendation of someone that wants to relieve you of £700? :wink:
5 years seems a pretty short life for a timing belt these days, appropriate for a car from the 80s.
This, 100%
God it annoys me how willing dealers are to rip people off.
Bring on electric cars and far less opportunity for them to do so.
The cynic in me would say that I have no doubt that VW’s (and other car manufacturers) dealer network will find other ways to fleece the customer to maintain their revenue in an all-electric world 🤔.
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Re: Question about time belt (toothed belt)

Post by monkeyhanger »

SRGTD wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:39 am
Andy Beats wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:11 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:51 pm Perhaps it's not official guidance, but the recommendation of someone that wants to relieve you of £700? :wink:
5 years seems a pretty short life for a timing belt these days, appropriate for a car from the 80s.
This, 100%
God it annoys me how willing dealers are to rip people off.
Bring on electric cars and far less opportunity for them to do so.
The cynic in me would say that I have no doubt that VW’s (and other car manufacturers) dealer network will find other ways to fleece the customer to maintain their revenue in an all-electric world 🤔.
I'm sure you're right, when EVs are being sold on the benefits of reduced running costs, including servicing, yet Nissan find a way to charge £150 (with a straight face) for a service where the only consumable is a cabin filter every other service.

Maybe they'll start sticking nails in our tyres during the inspection or releasing all the A/C gas to encourage you to get replacement tyres and an A/C recharge? :lol:
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