VW Update Plans

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Andy Beats
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:17 pm I'd guess the lack of interest is down to some of the following factors:-

1. Modern cars are pretty boring generally- mainly due to huge improvements in refinement and comfort. Most modern cars just don't feel quick (even the quick ones e.g. my old Golf R). There's not aot of joy in driving mosf modern cars.

2. Insuring anything as a new driver is prohibitive until you're 25 with 3 years NCD under your belt. They need to have a black box fitted and drive like a nun.

3. Most teenagers in my family socialise as much through their phone as getting out and about (especially currently). They'd rather hang around locally than drive somewhere, and seem to have no sense of adventure.

Being out on road trips with mates was the highlight of my late teens/early 20s. I used to have full use of my Dad's 2.8 Granada Estate at 17 during the week as my Dad used his works van almost exclusively Mon to Fri, and I had infrequent use of my Boss' Granada Scorpio Cosworth when he was away on business - company petrol card and a beast of a car to use if I picked him up from the airport.
Some fair points.
For the insurance thing, we were surprised at how little difference there was between black box and no black box when she passed in January.
Black box £760, no black box £900.
We'd agreed we'd pay her first year insurance, but she agreed to pay the extra to go without the box.

EDIT another interesting and relevant point
Our daughter wanted an electric car, but our £4k budget to buy her a car couldn't quite get a Zoe.
She's shown a distinct interest in selling her petrol Mii and leasing an E-Mii soon.
Stuart_Rendall
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Stuart_Rendall »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:17 pm I'd guess the lack of interest is down to some of the following factors:-

1. Modern cars are pretty boring generally- mainly due to huge improvements in refinement and comfort. Most modern cars just don't feel quick (even the quick ones e.g. my old Golf R). There's not aot of joy in driving mosf modern cars.

2. Insuring anything as a new driver is prohibitive until you're 25 with 3 years NCD under your belt. They need to have a black box fitted and drive like a nun.

3. Most teenagers in my family socialise as much through their phone as getting out and about (especially currently). They'd rather hang around locally than drive somewhere, and seem to have no sense of adventure.

Being out on road trips with mates was the highlight of my late teens/early 20s. I used to have full use of my Dad's 2.8 Granada Estate at 17 during the week as my Dad used his works van almost exclusively Mon to Fri, and I had infrequent use of my Boss' Granada Scorpio Cosworth when he was away on business - company petrol card and a beast of a car to use if I picked him up from the airport.
As a 22 year car enthusiast, Electric doesn't get me going but I still drawl over the new M3's and A45's so I don't think all new cars are too bad although it is coming to the end.

In terms of insurance I managed to insure my GTI at 19 for a little over £600 thanks to its radar and other safety features but pretty much anything else over 2 litres and old tech inside is upwards of £2000 with an M140i or M2 coming in at an eye-watering £5000 even now at 22 years old and 4 years NCB. I get people at work telling me to buy old big engined V8 German power houses but in the younger generation of drivers that simply isn't possible anymore since insurance companies laugh as soon as you press the 'show me quotes' button. Although I am fortunate enough to have friends who find fun driving 1 litre citroens and other small hatches of the likes and manage to get out to car meets and have fun outside... pre-covid of course. Was hoping to do the NC500 this year if all covid related things go well.
Andy Beats
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Andy Beats »

Stuart_Rendall wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:50 pm As a 22 year car enthusiast, Electric doesn't get me going
Not being funny, have you driven one?
I scoffed at them too, I'm into bikes as well as cars, but, hand on heart, a drive in a BMW i3 completely blew me away.
I was driving an Alpina BMW at that point, but was becoming really quite jaded with cars and the i3 put a massive grim on my face. :D
Just the sheer ludicrousness of something so quiet being so damned zippy.
I can get past the noise thing, it's a double edged sword to me.
With my driver/rider hat on, noise can be nice.
With my sitting in the house hat on, some pillock driving past in a car/on a bike with a loud exhaust make me feel murderous.
On balance, the thought of all vehicles being quiet pleases me more.
Simonz
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Simonz »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:08 pm
Simonz wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:41 pm
Some good points. I think give it another 5 years things will be tipping the balance towards EV if cost come down and charging infrastructure improves. Currently they are a novelty with severe limitations on long distance travelling. ICE cars do seem very crude, essentially the same idea of burning fuels that started over 100 years ago. In 25 years we will look back on it as a different era. Private cars using petrol will be a hobby as public electric charging stations gradually replace petrol pumps. It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver - the jerk, noise, pop and bang you describe. I expect some software would replicate this for anyone in need of a bellowing exhaust note for a car which doesn't have an exhaust...
It's going to take quite a while to even get to 50% EVs on the road. People are hesitant because the infrastructure isn't there for hassle-free charging away from home and for those people who can't charge at home, they'll be paying a lot more to charge.

If new car sales stay at roughly the average 2 million cars a year, for the 30ish Million on the road, if every car sold from now on was an EV, we'd still be talking 15 years to replace all of the non-cherished ICE cars. As it is, in its best ever year, EV sales were 6.6% of all UK new sales. That will creep up over the next 9 years, but I'd expect it to be at least 2028 before there's more EVs sold than ICE cars in a given year, putting the total EVs on the UK roads in 2028 at no more than 8 million. If there's no final scramble for ICE cars while we can still get them, you'll be into the late 2030s before EVs outnumber ICE cars on the UK roads.

ICE cars have had 100+ years of development, EVs are only.in their infancy - we need much lighter battery packs and even faster charging - I'm sure that will come in time when the whole R&D budget is being spent on EVs.

Only the huge weight gains in the name (mainly) of safety have blunted performance and fuel economy. Imagine what a car as light as a MK2 Golf GTI could do with the Golf R drivetrain - likely 0-62 in 3.5 seconds and 60mpg!

For most EVs that aren't pushing crazy outputs, the 0-62mph times are mainly attributed to the first 0-30mph, the ID3 can beat an RS7 to 25mph, then gets left behind. Above 60mph, the acceleration of the IID3 really falls off when compared to a Golf GTD (closest ICE equivalent for performance) - great for traffic light toolery, not as good for motorway driving (where range really falls off also).

Not looking forward to the inevitability of "PlayStation" driving - I bemoan the loss of the manual box option for our 2 current cars.
True, it will take a good while before they become the norm. I expect serious drivers to start collecting the best examples of ICE vehicles pretty soon before they disappear, whatever you consider these to be. Some current models have already been ruined by safety or emissions regs, it's debatable which Golf represents the pinnacle be it GTI or R32 etc. When you look back on the 90's the examples of Japanese sports cars and technology probably reached it's peak with the NSX, Prelude, Subaru, Mitsubishi. I think we are now in the end game of ICE cars, even manuals are disappearing with Hybrids and even the Polo GTI.
Simonz
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Simonz »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:16 pm
Simonz wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:41 pm It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver
This is an interesting point.
IMO, this craving will die off with 'our' generation.
As a dad of a couple of teenagers, and friendly with loads of other parents in the same boat, the apathy towards cars in general is weird to see.
They're just nowhere near as interested as we were, not even close.
They view them as transport, nothing else, no interest in working on them or tuning them or modifying them.
Some may see that as tragic, it doesn't really bother me, I just see it as progress/change.
If I ran a modification company though, I'd be looking to sell up in the next 10 years!
Yes that's true, it is a cultural thing, maybe the past 60 years has seen so much car modification, the magazines - Car Mechanics, Practical Motorist - and how to do fibreglass repairs, epoxy resin, tuning carbs, etc - it's all gradually disappeared by 1990 and then the brief Max Power revival of big wheels, spoilers and modified air intakes as the swansong. As all the Citroen Saxo go to the scrappers all that is left is non adjustable car engines and the Playstation or Ipad generation who are more interested in the tunes and tech. Suppose it's a green revolution if people just want to get from A to B with minimal fuss or pollution.
Simonz
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Simonz »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:17 pm
Andy Beats wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:16 pm
Simonz wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:41 pm It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver
This is an interesting point.
IMO, this craving will die off with 'our' generation.
As a dad of a couple of teenagers, and friendly with loads of other parents in the same boat, the apathy towards cars in general is weird to see.
They're just nowhere near as interested as we were, not even close.
They view them as transport, nothing else, no interest in working on them or tuning them or modifying them.
Some may see that as tragic, it doesn't really bother me, I just see it as progress/change.
If I ran a modification company though, I'd be looking to sell up in the next 10 years!
I'd guess the lack of interest is down to some of the following factors:-

1. Modern cars are pretty boring generally- mainly due to huge improvements in refinement and comfort. Most modern cars just don't feel quick (even the quick ones e.g. my old Golf R). There's not aot of joy in driving mosf modern cars.

2. Insuring anything as a new driver is prohibitive until you're 25 with 3 years NCD under your belt. They need to have a black box fitted and drive like a nun.

3. Most teenagers in my family socialise as much through their phone as getting out and about (especially currently). They'd rather hang around locally than drive somewhere, and seem to have no sense of adventure.

Being out on road trips with mates was the highlight of my late teens/early 20s. I used to have full use of my Dad's 2.8 Granada Estate at 17 during the week as my Dad used his works van almost exclusively Mon to Fri, and I had infrequent use of my Boss' Granada Scorpio Cosworth when he was away on business - company petrol card and a beast of a car to use if I picked him up from the airport.
Yes agree with those points, insurance is a massive cost nowadays. I was brought up a diet of MK2 Fiestas in the 80's, wasn't too much to insure a 950 but death by boredom and absolute rot boxes. A 2.8 Granada was the stuff of dreams...I can hear those V6 engines now with the slightly tappety engine noise and lazy autobox.
Stuart_Rendall
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Stuart_Rendall »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:39 pm
Stuart_Rendall wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:50 pm As a 22 year car enthusiast, Electric doesn't get me going
Not being funny, have you driven one?
I scoffed at them too, I'm into bikes as well as cars, but, hand on heart, a drive in a BMW i3 completely blew me away.
I was driving an Alpina BMW at that point, but was becoming really quite jaded with cars and the i3 put a massive grim on my face. :D
Just the sheer ludicrousness of something so quiet being so damned zippy.
I can get past the noise thing, it's a double edged sword to me.
With my driver/rider hat on, noise can be nice.
With my sitting in the house hat on, some pillock driving past in a car/on a bike with a loud exhaust make me feel murderous.
On balance, the thought of all vehicles being quiet pleases me more.
Yeah, i've driven a lot of electric cars, I work for an automotive tech company and i've driven everything from an RBW MGB GT Conversion to Teslas and Jaguar I Paces. So far nothing yet has got me excited. I think it's the lack of drama they create. I'm still young and asbo...ish so I want all the noise and drama that comes from a car. I wouldn't mind a hybrid as long as it still has that thunderous engine up front.

To be honest in my relatively short career going from my previous job at Toyota to where I currently work i've driven all sorts of things like a Prius Plus, an electric Lotus Elise, some horrific Chinese monstrosities, and electric Morgans but again not a fan. Never been on a bike yet though so that would be interesting.
Andy Beats
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Andy Beats »

Stuart_Rendall wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:37 am Never been on a bike yet though so that would be interesting.
Nor me, but the thought excites me and the possibilities are great.
I do a fair amount of track riding, I raced for years, and the opportunities in that respect are immense.
So many tracks have restricted hours due to noise, that would be removed and the tracks could make much more money.
From a riding point of view, many novices make mistakes through gearbox errors.
False neutrals going into corners, too low a gear and highsiding out of them etc.
If they only had to concentrate on braking and cornering, their riding would improve and fewer crashes.
Bring it on I say.
Stuart_Rendall
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by Stuart_Rendall »

Andy Beats wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:12 am Nor me, but the thought excites me and the possibilities are great.
I do a fair amount of track riding, I raced for years, and the opportunities in that respect are immense.
So many tracks have restricted hours due to noise, that would be removed and the tracks could make much more money.
From a riding point of view, many novices make mistakes through gearbox errors.
False neutrals going into corners, too low a gear and highsiding out of them etc.
If they only had to concentrate on braking and cornering, their riding would improve and fewer crashes.
Bring it on I say.
I've not even done my CBT yet, I am being pushed by a few mates to get it done and start my riding experience. I am very tempted to get it going once everything resumes after Covid.
monkeyhanger
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Re: VW Update Plans

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:08 pm .

EDIT another interesting and relevant point
Our daughter wanted an electric car, but our £4k budget to buy her a car couldn't quite get a Zoe.
She's shown a distinct interest in selling her petrol Mii and leasing an E-Mii soon.
Your daughter might want to check out HUKDs - a MII electric offer has been posted today: £4511 total for 24 months, 6k miles PA - 10k miles for £12 a month more.

Might be good timing if the lead time gives enough time to sell her car.
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