VW Update Plans

[Stuart_Rendall]

When people in there masses do all swap to electric vehicles I think it'll be advised heavily to charge at night as demands in domestic areas are lower and teriffs are cheaper. It also allows all the car batteries to essentially become a mega battery for the national grid in the instance of a failure in the grid.

It's probably going to occur organically.
Not sure what you mean about the car batteries becoming a mega battery, that suggests the car chargers are a 'two way' thing and the juice can be sucked out of the batteries back into the grid?
If this can happen via a normal EV charger (Podpoint for example), it's news to me.
Not saying you're wrong, I've just genuinely not heard of this.

We've had projects at work for sustainable energy projects as at the moment electricity cannot be stored so combining batteries of electric vehicles is a great way. So the average person could charge during the day but stay connected and essentially give energy back to the grid for a pre-approved sum in return. It works the same way solar panels do. Would need some extra infrastructure however but seems to be a popular route electricity companies want to go down as when demand is lower power stations switch off and the costs to restart their processes is fairly expensive.

[SRGTD]

When people in there masses do all swap to electric vehicles I think it'll be advised heavily to charge at night as demands in domestic areas are lower and teriffs are cheaper. It also allows all the car batteries to essentially become a mega battery for the national grid in the instance of a failure in the grid.

It's probably going to occur organically.
Not sure what you mean about the car batteries becoming a mega battery, that suggests the car chargers are a 'two way' thing and the juice can be sucked out of the batteries back into the grid?
If this can happen via a normal EV charger (Podpoint for example), it's news to me.
Not saying you're wrong, I've just genuinely not heard of this.

Try a Google search on ‘Vehicle to Grid’.

[Andy Beats]

We've had projects at work for sustainable energy projects as at the moment electricity cannot be stored so combining batteries of electric vehicles is a great way. So the average person could charge during the day but stay connected and essentially give energy back to the grid for a pre-approved sum in return. It works the same way solar panels do. Would need some extra infrastructure however but seems to be a popular route electricity companies want to go down as when demand is lower power stations switch off and the costs to restart their processes is fairly expensive.

Ah, so it's not something that can be done as part of the standard kit, it would need additional kit.
It's a good idea, I'd be up for that.

[Stuart_Rendall]

When people in there masses do all swap to electric vehicles I think it'll be advised heavily to charge at night as demands in domestic areas are lower and teriffs are cheaper. It also allows all the car batteries to essentially become a mega battery for the national grid in the instance of a failure in the grid.

It's probably going to occur organically.
Not sure what you mean about the car batteries becoming a mega battery, that suggests the car chargers are a 'two way' thing and the juice can be sucked out of the batteries back into the grid?
If this can happen via a normal EV charger (Podpoint for example), it's news to me.
Not saying you're wrong, I've just genuinely not heard of this.

Try a Google search on ‘Vehicle to Grid’.

The research website; https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/aut ... r-insights is also a very good source for things like this.

[monkeyhanger]

The trouble with charging away from home is that most places want to charge you upwards of 40p per kW, which puts you driving an expensive (relative to ICE) car and ICE sized fuelling costs.

EVs at current prices only make any sense if you can make fuel savings to cancel out the high price of the car itself.

My wife won't drive the A4 (too big she'd drive the ID3, as she used to drive my Golf R), although she does like being a passenger as the interior and ride are significantly better. Only needing a second car once a week/fortnight, I gave some thought as to the ID3 this morning, doing some sums (ID3 Life performance 150kW with alloy wheels and metallic paint through drivethedeal for just over £27k)) and I'd be about £1500 a year better off (a grand in fuel savings plus that £475 luxury VED) swapping the A4 for an ID3 and doing all possible miles in the ID3. The Polo GTI would end up doing 3k miles PA , on long journey service and likely be a long term keeper.

In the ID3 range, the difference between life and the other trims with decent levels of equipment runs in the thousands, crazy money.

That's not an insignificant amount of money to save (assuming I can always charge at home), but I'd still feel a bit short changed, swapping a bigger, far better equipped, comfier car for what's basically a bottom trim Golf, with bottom trim equipment levels and the EV equivalent to the GTD engine in a much heavier chassis (making it not particularly fast).

A car that meets my current needs or swap for one which is a real compromise for £1500 saving between 2 cars. I'd rather keep the A4, for now. High levels of equipment for discounted "Life" trim money would make it easier to make the change but £3k to add what would be a grand's worth of optioned equipment on a Golf is just too much.

[Andy Beats]

EVs at current prices only make any sense if you can make fuel savings to cancel out the high price of the car itself.

I'm not interested in buying, I will only ever lease/PCP until I pop my clogs.
From that point of view, electric cars are either no dearer at all or barely any dearer.
I could easily get a top spec Leaf for under what I'm paying for the GTi, an ID3 is (or was at that time) only around £40 more - but they were all sold.
And fuel savings are pretty irrelevant to me, I'm a very low mileage driver.
I just like not having to go to petrol stations, I like the instant acceleration, I like being able to preheat or cool via an app and I like no worries about DPF or GPF.

if you take the acceleration, the Gti is pretty quick, but it doesn't half make a fuss doing it!
It's all GRRRR JERK GRRRRRRR VIBRATE JERK GRRRRRRR - it really puts me off using it, I can't be annoyed with all the NVH.
Try that same level of acceleration in an electric car with zero fuss, it's totally addictive.
There's far more to EVs than fuel savings, in my book.

[monkeyhanger]

EVs at current prices only make any sense if you can make fuel savings to cancel out the high price of the car itself.

I'm not interested in buying, I will only ever lease/PCP until I pop my clogs.
From that point of view, electric cars are either no dearer at all or barely any dearer.
I could easily get a top spec Leaf for under what I'm paying for the GTi, an ID3 is (or was at that time) only around £40 more - but they were all sold.
And fuel savings are pretty irrelevant to me, I'm a very low mileage driver.
I just like not having to go to petrol stations, I like the instant acceleration, I like being able to preheat or cool via an app and I like no worries about DPF or GPF.

if you take the acceleration, the Gti is pretty quick, but it doesn't half make a fuss doing it!
It's all GRRRR JERK GRRRRRRR VIBRATE JERK GRRRRRRR - it really puts me off using it, I can't be annoyed with all the NVH.
Try that same level of acceleration in an electric car with zero fuss, it's totally addictive.
There's far more to EVs than fuel savings, in my book.

I've not found a lease deal yet for anything I've wanted that beats buying outright and covering the depreciation, or comes anywhere close. Cheapest lease for a 150kW ID3 I can find is about £360pm (inclusive of initial payment spread through 36 month term and 10k miles pa). Add another £30pm for metallic paint and the cheapest alloys option to get shot of the steel wheels. I'd expect that ID3 to be worth £17k after 3 years (based on 110% of the GFV on finance examples), so depreciation is a flat £275pm vs £390pm to lease. Doesn't add up to lease vs buy outright, although it is cheaper than PCP.

Better tyres will help acceleration on the Polo (warm and dry, with PS4s on, you can give it 80% throttle without tramping). My A4 has quattro, so I don't experience tramping anyway.

For most people they'll be weighing up the higher cost to buy/lease vs fuel savings.

Just imagine how good EVs could be if they weren't carrying nearly a ton in battery pack weight - instant 25% efficiency improvement. That is something that's got to change with more development.

[Andy Beats]

Better tyres will help acceleration on the Polo (warm and dry, with PS4s on, you can give it 80% throttle without tramping). My A4 has quattro, so I don't experience tramping anyway.

For most people they'll be weighing up the higher cost to buy/lease vs fuel savings.

Just imagine how good EVs could be if they weren't carrying nearly a ton in battery pack weight - instant 25% efficiency improvement. That is something that's got to change with more development.

Tramping isn't a problem on mine, never has been, it's just the 'fuss' that accelerating any ICE car hard involves - it's endemic to them all.
Balancing revs/clutch (if manual), axle tramp, noise, vibration etc.etc.
Of course the 'trouble' with the drama free acceleration of an EV is that you do tend to use it far more (like ALL the time).
You find yourself flying away from traffic at every set of lights, it's just so easy.

With regard to weight, I agree that will come down.
It's an interesting fact that the size of battery pack required to take a Renault Zoe approx 90 miles has gone from filling the floorpan to the size of a suitcase.
In itself that's a sign of the speed of progress, given the Zoe isn't old.

[Simonz]

EVs at current prices only make any sense if you can make fuel savings to cancel out the high price of the car itself.

I'm not interested in buying, I will only ever lease/PCP until I pop my clogs.
From that point of view, electric cars are either no dearer at all or barely any dearer.
I could easily get a top spec Leaf for under what I'm paying for the GTi, an ID3 is (or was at that time) only around £40 more - but they were all sold.
And fuel savings are pretty irrelevant to me, I'm a very low mileage driver.
I just like not having to go to petrol stations, I like the instant acceleration, I like being able to preheat or cool via an app and I like no worries about DPF or GPF.

if you take the acceleration, the Gti is pretty quick, but it doesn't half make a fuss doing it!
It's all GRRRR JERK GRRRRRRR VIBRATE JERK GRRRRRRR - it really puts me off using it, I can't be annoyed with all the NVH.
Try that same level of acceleration in an electric car with zero fuss, it's totally addictive.
There's far more to EVs than fuel savings, in my book.

Some good points. I think give it another 5 years things will be tipping the balance towards EV if cost come down and charging infrastructure improves. Currently they are a novelty with severe limitations on long distance travelling. ICE cars do seem very crude, essentially the same idea of burning fuels that started over 100 years ago. In 25 years we will look back on it as a different era. Private cars using petrol will be a hobby as public electric charging stations gradually replace petrol pumps. It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver - the jerk, noise, pop and bang you describe. I expect some software would replicate this for anyone in need of a bellowing exhaust note for a car which doesn't have an exhaust...

[Andy Beats]

It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver - the jerk, noise, pop and bang you describe. I expect some software would replicate this for anyone in need of a bellowing exhaust note for a car which doesn't have an exhaust...

I could be wrong, but I'm sure there is an EV out there that 'pipes' a choice of sounds into the cabin via the stereo.
It sounds like the sort of thing Tesla would do, but I've been reading a lot about Polestar lately and it could be them.

As an aside, I saw a thing listing companies and what would have happened if you invested USD1000 10 years ago.
Tesla would now be worth USD170000, miles ahead of anyone else including Apple etc.

[monkeyhanger]

Some good points. I think give it another 5 years things will be tipping the balance towards EV if cost come down and charging infrastructure improves. Currently they are a novelty with severe limitations on long distance travelling. ICE cars do seem very crude, essentially the same idea of burning fuels that started over 100 years ago. In 25 years we will look back on it as a different era. Private cars using petrol will be a hobby as public electric charging stations gradually replace petrol pumps. It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver - the jerk, noise, pop and bang you describe. I expect some software would replicate this for anyone in need of a bellowing exhaust note for a car which doesn't have an exhaust...

It's going to take quite a while to even get to 50% EVs on the road. People are hesitant because the infrastructure isn't there for hassle-free charging away from home and for those people who can't charge at home, they'll be paying a lot more to charge.

If new car sales stay at roughly the average 2 million cars a year, for the 30ish Million on the road, if every car sold from now on was an EV, we'd still be talking 15 years to replace all of the non-cherished ICE cars. As it is, in its best ever year, EV sales were 6.6% of all UK new sales. That will creep up over the next 9 years, but I'd expect it to be at least 2028 before there's more EVs sold than ICE cars in a given year, putting the total EVs on the UK roads in 2028 at no more than 8 million. If there's no final scramble for ICE cars while we can still get them, you'll be into the late 2030s before EVs outnumber ICE cars on the UK roads.

ICE cars have had 100+ years of development, EVs are only.in their infancy - we need much lighter battery packs and even faster charging - I'm sure that will come in time when the whole R&D budget is being spent on EVs.

Only the huge weight gains in the name (mainly) of safety have blunted performance and fuel economy. Imagine what a car as light as a MK2 Golf GTI could do with the Golf R drivetrain - likely 0-62 in 3.5 seconds and 60mpg!

For most EVs that aren't pushing crazy outputs, the 0-62mph times are mainly attributed to the first 0-30mph, the ID3 can beat an RS7 to 25mph, then gets left behind. Above 60mph, the acceleration of the IID3 really falls off when compared to a Golf GTD (closest ICE equivalent for performance) - great for traffic light toolery, not as good for motorway driving (where range really falls off also).

Not looking forward to the inevitability of "PlayStation" driving - I bemoan the loss of the manual box option for our 2 current cars.

[monkeyhanger]

It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver - the jerk, noise, pop and bang you describe. I expect some software would replicate this for anyone in need of a bellowing exhaust note for a car which doesn't have an exhaust...

I could be wrong, but I'm sure there is an EV out there that 'pipes' a choice of sounds into the cabin via the stereo.
It sounds like the sort of thing Tesla would do, but I've been reading a lot about Polestar lately and it could be them.

As an aside, I saw a thing listing companies and what would have happened if you invested USD1000 10 years ago.
Tesla would now be worth USD170000, miles ahead of anyone else including Apple etc.

If Tesla built cars like Space X built rockets, they'd be in trouble! It'd be a brave person that volunteers for their first manned flight!

[Andy Beats]

It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver

This is an interesting point.
IMO, this craving will die off with 'our' generation.
As a dad of a couple of teenagers, and friendly with loads of other parents in the same boat, the apathy towards cars in general is weird to see.
They're just nowhere near as interested as we were, not even close.
They view them as transport, nothing else, no interest in working on them or tuning them or modifying them.
Some may see that as tragic, it doesn't really bother me, I just see it as progress/change.
If I ran a modification company though, I'd be looking to sell up in the next 10 years!

[MilgeS]

It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver

This is an interesting point.
IMO, this craving will die off with 'our' generation.
As a dad of a couple of teenagers, and friendly with loads of other parents in the same boat, the apathy towards cars in general is weird to see.
They're just nowhere near as interested as we were, not even close.
They view them as transport, nothing else, no interest in working on them or tuning them or modifying them.
Some may see that as tragic, it doesn't really bother me, I just see it as progress/change.
If I ran a modification company though, I'd be looking to sell up in the next 10 years!

I agree with your thinking, as a driving instructor, the last few years we have seen an increase in automatic lesson enquiries.

My theory is that people now look at a driving licence as a more convenient way to get from A to B and back again, automatic being the less stressful way of learning to do so. Rather than in my era when we would be out every night with a car full of mates just driving aimlessly or evening weekend drives for pleasure.

[monkeyhanger]

It will be interesting if people still crave the 'performance' image and experience that current ICE cars deliver

This is an interesting point.
IMO, this craving will die off with 'our' generation.
As a dad of a couple of teenagers, and friendly with loads of other parents in the same boat, the apathy towards cars in general is weird to see.
They're just nowhere near as interested as we were, not even close.
They view them as transport, nothing else, no interest in working on them or tuning them or modifying them.
Some may see that as tragic, it doesn't really bother me, I just see it as progress/change.
If I ran a modification company though, I'd be looking to sell up in the next 10 years!

I'd guess the lack of interest is down to some of the following factors:-

1. Modern cars are pretty boring generally- mainly due to huge improvements in refinement and comfort. Most modern cars just don't feel quick (even the quick ones e.g. my old Golf R). There's not aot of joy in driving mosf modern cars.

2. Insuring anything as a new driver is prohibitive until you're 25 with 3 years NCD under your belt. They need to have a black box fitted and drive like a nun.

3. Most teenagers in my family socialise as much through their phone as getting out and about (especially currently). They'd rather hang around locally than drive somewhere, and seem to have no sense of adventure.

Being out on road trips with mates was the highlight of my late teens/early 20s. I used to have full use of my Dad's 2.8 Granada Estate at 17 during the week as my Dad used his works van almost exclusively Mon to Fri, and I had infrequent use of my Boss' Granada Scorpio Cosworth when he was away on business - company petrol card and a beast of a car to use if I picked him up from the airport.