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Er, well, sort of. I just have a small query that google cant answer and the police will take a while to get back to me on, i'm reckoning.

Speed limits. We have to obey them. I'm assuming police cars also usually have to. What's the exact circumstances that exempt them from doing so?

I need fairly precise details... preferably a verbatim quote with a source that can be validated.





Why?


Long story. LONG bastard story. Summary: Going home tonight, cops passed me in wet sans blue lights, sped through a dangerous section that its not clever to take that fast even in the dry, responded with BS and intimidation when i challenged them, and i wish to know where i stand as the basis of a complaint. This nonsense just aint on.

full fat edition:
Cruising home tonight, 1.30am (got off early), taking a by-the-by route, it was wet, i was making about 35 (down admittedly a 30 limit road, but one where the going flow rate is often 40-45 in dry daytime). Some nutjob hares up behind me, i decide to detour right at the next lights so I can move off into the filter lane and let 'em by... it's probably a taxi, one's already tailgated me and overtaken when there was a safe clear patch. Typical, they're going right as well, no time to change my mind, and a hundred yards later they overtake, without so much as a signal.
It's at this point I see it's a police car, no flashing lights or anything. Very odd behaviour that, so i think.... and i'm also put out by it, because we're now on a road that's not really condusive to speeding in any conditions, and they're really making tracks. Against my better judgement i follow on and see just how quick. Rozz Copper makes 50+ (i dont dare pass 45 even with the dubious safety buffer of having them to hit any oncoming traffic first, and they're distinctly pulling away) through a tricky section that's usually good for 25-30 in the dry because of parked-car chicanes and very crap sight-lines..... pull up beside them when they stop at the next set of lights and try the whole "excuse me, do you know how fast you were travelling there sir" routine

They're obviously put out by this, it's not the way things are supposed to happen. THEY pull other people up, not the other way round. There's claims they're on the way to a job, they dont have the blue lights on because it would wake people up (eh?), try to make like i'm in the wrong and talking to them in a condescending manner etc. Somewhat cowed by the fact they might be on their way to a burgulary or something, I don't push the matter as far as I could have, but their parting shot gives me pause for thought....

"whats the point of us putting the lights on anyway, there's no-one else on the road save yourself, we're not trained to do that".
(not trained to use their lights?!)

Right. So somehow they have psychic powers that tell them that on this section of road, the only other vehicle is me, following them, and there's not, for example, a night-freight truck coming the other way (despite the large number of such i already passed myself in a 15 minute drive). For such a reason I wouldn't normally go fast through that section - you literally can't tell whats coming round the bends in it, even at night, and there's likely to be pedestrians about. Plus in the wet there's the added problem of stopping distance. I don't care if they have antilocks and wide tyres - a 2-up Pug 306 with all the ancillary police gear doing 50 is going to take at least as long to pull up as my dub would from 40. The roads in this area are f**ing greasy when the rain comes down, as I'm sure i've made clear before.

And if they were going to a job and laws magically no longer applied to them because of that, someone want to tell me just what the hell they stopped at the red light for? They were turning left at a junction where you could very, very easily see a good couple hundred yards down the road to the right, and the one ahead... jumping the red to turn left would have been much safer than speeding and have got them to their destination quicker a lot more effectively than that, given that they were stopped long enough for me to catch them, stop beside, wind the window down, and honk - twice - to get their attention.

Speed kills after all. And a police car without the blues on appears just like any other car until it's gone past you (the headlamps glare out the details) and you certainly cant tell it's coming from any further. Even without siren, the lights penetrate further than regular headlamps. They're higher up, flashing/spinning, brighter, and in a colour that cuts through the streetlamps better, giving much enhanced visibility. Plus a flashing blue gives you a warning that something fast, important, and unwilling to stop may be coming - so you have chance to allow for the fact that policemen can't see round blind bends and make way for them to pass safely. That's part of the reason they have them, not just to get people out of the way, but to serve as warning, because seriously: you do not know what is around that next bend.
Example of which? Another car more genuinely on a job (probably responding to a report of someone doing 42 in a safer 30 from one of the various look-out cars parked up on all the long straight roads tonight - gotta stop those evil speeders!) passed me before that, going the other way... and i could tell where it was from ages off, round a corner, before i even saw it's headlights, as it was fully blued up. No siren, given the early hour, but with lights a-blazing - so any excuse that the two are linked goes in the trash.
(not that i havent heard enough sirens at 2am before)

I would have expected better from people who have supposedly had an advanced drivers course and should be setting an example, and to have been talked to/treated better by people who are supposed to be serving the public trust (e.g. myself) and really have a bad enough image already without denting it by talking to me like they might a common thieving sh*tbag.

I only figured out properly the full meaning of and bullsh*t content of what they'd said a few seconds after they left (yes, they waited for the green light)... turned back off my heading to give chase, but alas... long gone, and i didn't fancy causing extra trouble by shooting off at high speed to look. They did however leave directly in the direction of the local police station. Big suspicion that they only job they were hurrying for was a call that Jacqui the night receptionist was brewing up.... They had big enough smiles on their faces after all, til I sounded my horn the second time...

Does this mean, if it's night and the roads are largely deserted, it's perfectly fine for me to zip through dangerous bottlenecks at 20-over (but not to pass through stupidly un-phased red lights even when i can see its clear for a half mile each way)?? I've so gotta try that excuse if I ever get pulled up..... "well, it worked for your colleague in erdington when I asked him the same question"...

((( and whats so special about me or any "only other car on the road" that they shouldn't put the blues on? they braked down from a higher speed and then followed me for a good quarter mile or so at a practically unprosecutable amount over 30, and quite slowly through the first set of lights - if they'd hit the light switch I'd have been out of their way FAR sooner, and been careful about it... hell, even using it as a warning before they overtook would have been nice )))



I'm quite p1ssed off about this as you may tell, and have fire enough that I will be making an official complaint, especially so if i find that they were just as prosecutable as me at that speed, without the flashers going - and recent(?) news stories concerning speeding emergency vehicles with/without lights being involved in fatal accidents. I'm thinking that's a good 6 points and a couple hundred pounds fine, plus any disciplinary procedures (or even just good old fashioned talking-to) following on from their handling of the enquiry from a concerned member of the public..... oh if only I'd thought of making a citizen's arrest (or taking their badge numbers... damn... well, i've got a good enough mental picture to ID them with, as well as place/time, and they'll likely blab about it)

disclaimer....
(ahem... your honour... i of course did not follow them at that speed, i maintained my own lawful rate of travel (29.5mph), and 50mph is only what i estimated their progress at... as they seemed to be receding almost as quickly as parked cars were approaching, and i only just caught them up in time to challenge them, it could be much higher. and i did not sound my horn, even briefly, as that is naturally illegal between 11pm and 7am - they must have mistaken me revving the engine to catch 1st gear more easily..)

I can only speak from a Firemans point of view (but I would come to the assumption that all emergancy services follow the sames rules, as they all attend the same advance driving courses) but a unit has to have its blues on to pass through lights/speed.

In all other circumstances they are treated as normal vechicles. If you check national newspaper databases there are loads of instances where they have been issued with speeding tickets (from cameras - as cameras aren't owned by the Police) and parking tickets

hope that helps

It is illegal for Police/Fire Service/Ambulances to run a red light whether they have the 'blues n twos' on or not.

The only public service that is aloud to run a red light is the Postal Service during war time. (Its an old law)

Apparantly?!

I would think it stupid for them to run reds without any warning of sirens or lights, as they can cause a dangerous situation, with drivers having to be reactive rather than proactive.

Karl.

Going from memory, I *think* they're allowed to "make progress" if it is in the line of their duties and they have a distinct reason to do so (i.e. responding to a call, for a reason that will be recorded in their notebook and the station's log of calls).

Under these circumstances they can ignore the rules of the road, but have to be able to defend their actions with a genuine reason for needing to do so.

I seem to recall that the use of lights/sirens is a separate issue and is concerned with communicating their presence and intent to other road users. If it was 1.30 in the morning, and little other traffic about, then it's perfectly reasonable that they could have been needing to move from one place to another quickly and did not feel it necessary to warn the empty road of their whereabouts.

There's also the quiet approach to think about where sirens will often not be used (if a crime is in progress so as not to alert the perpeptrator to their imeninent arrival), but that doesn't explain the lack of lights.

If I was in your position, I would report the incident to the area office, state where you were and what time, and give a rough description of the car (i.e. traffic unit, panda, etc.). If there was a reason for it to be acting as it was, it will be recorded, if they can't give you a reason, then make a formal complaint. Of course, they might not be willing to look up their log without you making the complaint first, but that's another story....

Basically, if they're prepared to make 20mph zones past schools apply 24 hours, then the rules governing a police car's travel should also apply 24/7 - hence I think you would be justifying in asking the police to explain themselves. Use the "think of the children" argument, if you feel the need -- no matter how rediculous given the circumstances -- after all, it's what they'd do to you...

From what you say about the red light, their call could have ended just as they passed you. Or they could have been taking the p***. You decide...

Deek.

dxg wrote:Going from memory, I *think* they're allowed to "make progress" if it is in the line of their duties and they have a distinct reason to do so (i.e. responding to a call, for a reason that will be recorded in their notebook and the station's log of calls).

So they are allowed to speed if on their way to a job just as a matter of course... ok...

Under these circumstances they can ignore the rules of the road,

including reds i would guess, if i am momentarily to dismiss poloGTi's post office statement as a little.... funny
(soz PGTi, nowt personal... i merely find it a little hard to swallow that they cant go thru red lights at any point! as i had to make way for an ambulance in that situation twice in the last two weeks, someone would have put a stop to it or legalised it by now*)

* yeah i realise this is putting an extremely undue amount of faith in the british legal system

but have to be able to defend their actions with a genuine reason for needing to do so.

50 thru that particular bit of road in the wet - but then stopping at the lights, I would find hard to defend sensibly. I'd go so far as to say turning left on red there is less dangerous than the speed. 50 vs 10-15mph, 1.5 standard width lanes vs 2.5, 20 metres viz vs 100+...

If it was 1.30 in the morning, and little other traffic about, then it's perfectly reasonable that they could have been needing to move from one place to another quickly and did not feel it necessary to warn the empty road of their whereabouts.

Well y'see, it's not an empty road, and surely the first tenet of any defensive driving course (i would imagine, having never been on one ) is to never assume it is so at any time.... Sure "run" the light slowly (walk the light?) if you've checked, but don't blast it at 40 without looking i.e. the old "go no faster than you CAN SEE to stop" thing.
After all, *I* was there for one thing, making the road immediately "occupied by another driver" - and if I was there to be overtaken, then there's easily the possibility of someone else coming the other way.
I mean, even if you narrow it down to Hotel Staff On Their Way Home, the belfry aint the only place in the entire west midlands that would need people from early evening to a bit after midnight.... and even out of that one establishment, i wasnt their only staff member who was clocking off at that time and lived local to where that unit was operating.

Then factor in all the other people who would have reason to be travelling at such at time. In 1954 you could reasonably have expected to "own the road" at 1.30am on a weekday, but not 2004. There were enough other cars on the road that I saw. It's quieter at night, certainly, but not empty. Doing something stupid is just begging for fate to reach out and deal you a slap across the face in the form of an overnight courier transit coming the other way.

There's also the quiet approach to think about where sirens will often not be used (if a crime is in progress so as not to alert the perpeptrator to their imeninent arrival), but that doesn't explain the lack of lights.

Fair enough, I wasnt at all expecting them to use the siren, in the same way I wouldn't drive down the road with my horn going at that hour. Lights would be nice though, as they work very effectively in the dark - and, if they were trying to approach someone discreetly, a high speed arrival (noisy from the engine and tyres) would probably not be a good idea anyway and lights could therefore be off so as not to alert the perps.

If I was in your position, I would report the incident to the area office, state where you were and what time

G*****y H*** Road, going from B***m*** to E******ton... 1.30am...

and give a rough description of the car (i.e. traffic unit, panda, etc.).

Peugeot, probably 307 or 407, dont know what the diff between TU or Panda is but it was white with a dayglo yellow stripe... Exceedingly young looking (and i'm only 22...) thin-faced bloke at the wheel with badly kept brown hair, and an older, rounder baldie in the passenger seat.

That should ID them well enough, it's only a small OCU, if they indeed came from where I think they did.

If there was a reason for it to be acting as it was, it will be recorded, if they can't give you a reason, then make a formal complaint. Of course, they might not be willing to look up their log without you making the complaint first, but that's another story....

Interesting Guess I'll try it, see what happens. Would you reccomend telephone or a personal visit. Telephone is less likely to get the sh*t kicked out of me or arrested for wasting police time, but a face-to-face is better to get results.
BTW I've also asked the same question (though in a much less verbose fashion - ie no backstory!) thru the feedback page on the west mids police site - be good to see what they say, and if i get spin and BS or an actual quote from the rules and regs. Apparently, according to their "Press and PR" (I kid you not) autoreply, someone will be emailing me back to fill me in "shortly"... obviously their idea of shortly is in excess of 36 hours... i hope i dont have to call on their physical services any time soon and be told "a unit will be with you shortly".
(( i realise i'd probably be hypocritical at that point if i was to critisize them for arriving too slowly!! i'd hope they'd take a bit more of a care in their travel to the scene though ))

Basically, if they're prepared to make 20mph zones past schools apply 24 hours, then the rules governing a police car's travel should also apply 24/7 - hence I think you would be justifying in asking the police to explain themselves.

Well, yknow, that's kind of why I went after them, so I could confront this rubbish head-on. I've never, luckily, had a speeding ticket (or one for dangerous driving, heaven knows how), but there's always the threat of it on the occasions when I have reason to exceed the arbitrarily-set speed limit on a particular road (whilst staying within what I feel to be the safe perameters of the road and my car and reactions).
I'd receive absolutely no mercy if i was to repeat their actions even if i was on my way to prevent some great catastrophe, suicide, murder, bomb, etc etc, or even delivering urgent medication in the day-job --- rather than whatever their "call" was... what (in that area of town) would probably amount to yet another high-rise domestic, a burglary/car theft where the perp was long gone and the trail cold, or some pissed(/stoned) guy calling to complain that "someone" had stolen all his beer(/stash) when it was his passed-out mate who bogey'd it... It can't have been all that important after all if they actually bothered to rise to my challenge instead of saying "yes, we do know how fast we were going, and haven't time to play with you" and getting the f*** out.

Even without a leg to stand on with the original inquiry, i'm still put out by the way those two handled it. In a word - crappily, even though I probably cut quite a cheeky-f****r image.

That school zone thing BTW is totally stupid (i beleive in america, they have a thing where it's a much reduced limit between the school-zone signs when the orange lights flash... sensible, and probably far more effective). But then with so many traffic lights that dont have detectors for night-time or any shorter-period phasing (sitting 3 minutes waiting for lights to change and NOTHING goes by...) it's to be expected really 9_9
What can you do, apart from getting some old rags, meths, and a lighter, to rap in not necessarily that order around a few gatsos? Complain, that's what
(I *wub* the detector-based lights that do exist round my way, BTW... can operate a quick and efficient no-stop strategy on a well-chosen route home. If only they were a little quicker/earlier to respond, so I didnt have to drop to 15mph on the approach still, beats having to stop, and definately having to stop and wait!)

Use the "think of the children" argument, if you feel the need

emh...
i'd have to keep quiet from them that i'd probably support a young-folks kerfew (sp?) round my way if it wasn't going the way of a martial-law state
Think of the children of anyone they might hit though, certainly. Pug 407, pretty safe car i think, they'd probably make it with scratches and airbag friction burns from a smash even at that speed. No guarantee for whatever/whomever they collide with.

From what you say about the red light, their call could have ended just as they passed you.

Hmm, unless they're actually as illiterate as we like to think the police are, the actual wording used would suggest not. (And I do... mmm... did? know a guy who's gone into the force, and he's sharp enough.. its also from him and his father in the traffic force that i know they like to abuse their priveleges. after all, who's gonna stop em? 110mph down the hard shoulder to get home in time for eastenders, etc..)

Or they could have been taking the p***. You decide...

The choice... is yours! Over to you, Cilla.
(p-take, quite probably. grah.)

i havent read everything here because basically......i cant be arsed

but emergency services as far as im aware...can only speed if

a) they have their lights flashing and
b) their on a call out

so if their flashin their lights because their late home for tea and their worried about a bashing from the missus....tough s**t...their goin down