K04 Turbo

[chris meardon]

Hi Guys

I am currently about to go for revo stage 2 and im thinking about the next step after that, i think thats where the ko3 pretty much runs out of steam so I need to look into a bigger turbo.

I dont want to have a out and out drag car with huge turbo although it is appealing! I want to keep it driveable every day.

So I think this has lead me onto a K04, I know these are on the s3's and I would like to produce power around 300bhp, Is it just the S3 inlet, injectors and turbo that i need along with a custom map? or will i need internals for 300BHP as well?

Im half tempted to buy a whole s3 engine and stick it in because they are slightly bigger bore but I dont want to do this unless absoloutly nessesary.

Any advice welcomed

Thanks

[Turbomier]

if you mean K04-023, thats the one that comes from S3/TT with stock 225Hp.
300Hp is verry rare with this type of turbo, when you are lucky and have the right conditions it's do-able,
most people get around 260 - 280Hp.
the engine is not higher bored than the engine from the polo, but they are stronger thats a fact, they allready have stronger internals from factory.
only problem is that the turbo from the S3 (K04-023) don't fit on the Polo. the exhaust side is on the other side of the turbo and it will collide with youre ABS.
the one you need is a K04-001, this one is bolt on to the polo and is not a standard turbo from VAG, it a upgraded version of the K03s from Borg warner itself.
highest figures iv'e seen from this turbo is 278Hp and 420nM in a Ibiza. (also with the perfect conditions and it's rarely seen)
normally this Turbo will get you around 240 - 260Hp.
but then you need:

- K04-001 turbo
- complete exhaust system, 2.5" will do just fine.
- injectors from audi TT/S3 BAM
- spark plugs from audi RS2 (colder)
- front mount intercooler
- R32 MAF sensor (could do without this also)
- airfilter (BMC CDA is verry good)
- 3bar fuel pump (S3/TT)
- Remap
- clutch (probably need a stronger one)

note that it is an expensive mod, mostly the K04-001 turbo provides about 20Hp to somtimes 30Hp more than the K03s turbo you have now.
so if you compare the price from the K04 against youre K03s you will see that it's alot of money for 20 or even 30Hp.
with some luck you get 250Hp out of the K03s turbo, most people with only exhaust, airfilter, chiptuning get around 230Hp.
so it's up to you if you want to do this mod.
but i must say it's a verry good turbo, spools verry quickly and hold it's power a bit longer than K03s.
so, i do think it's worth this mod, but for about the same money (maybe a bit more) you can get a GT28RS or IHIVF34 turbo on it.
and you will be having 320 - 350Hp (thats 60 - 90Hp more than K04-001 )
but you can run on lower boost and still get 300Hp, than you will have less stress on the turbo as well.

ps: engine can hold 300Hp 400nM (with stronger clutch) safely.
everything higher is more risky to drive with (specially the gearbox), depending on your drivestyle.
but i have known alot of people with 1.8T (ibiza) that have had 350Hp without changing internals and the car or engine never gave a shrink.

hope it helps you

[chris meardon]

Thanks for that

So there wouldnt be too much difference between the stage 2 and fitting a ko4-001???

I am after a sensible most bang for my buck way of increasing to around 300bhp keeping it driveable.

can you advise?

Thanks

[Turbomier]

no problem mate

20 - 30Hp is alot of difference, don't underestimade it, also the torque will be higher with a KO4.
and the way it provides his power is also a big difference.
BUT, it's alot of money and some extra upgrades you need to be doing before you can run the K04.
so my honest opinion...

why put all that money in youre GTI for trying to get 300Hp what you just won't reach with that turbo?
if you do the above upgrades i posted and get a Turbokit from IHI.
will cost a bit more than a K04 upgrade, but you will get much more in return!
it spools up from around +-2500RPM all the way to the red line, it keeps pulling!
i am personaly verry amazed by this turbo!
IHI VF34 turbine can reach about +350Hp on full boost.
but like i said, don't run on full boost and get it mapped to +-300Hp.
you will have high reliablity from youre turbo and if you don't drive like a maniac, youre car will hold it easy!

another option is Garret GT28RS, this turbine will also get youre car to max 340 - 350Hp.
spools a bit slower than the IHI, around 3000-3500rpm on a 1.8T,
and it will also pull verry verry strong untill the red line.
these turbo's are commonly used on 1.8T and they are proven to be verry solid and reliable.
why i would recommend this turbo is because you can get this one as a elliminator kit.
this means that it is bolt on like a K04-001.
the eliminator kit will fit on the stock downpipe or a Milltek/blueflame exhaust. (recomended)
so you will save the money of getting a downpipe made to fit the turbo.
the cost of this option is about the same as a K04 swap.
keep in mind that a normal GT28RS won't fit directly, if you want a bolt on job you must get the ellimintor kit!

last but not least,
K03s hybrid (the cheapest way to get 300Hp i guess?)
not many people know this version exists,
it's the same turbo as a standerd Polo GTI has, but it has been "tuned"
on full boost it is capable of reaching between 290-320Hp and this one is also full bolt on (as it is the same turbo as you have know)
they are made bij JBS, on the site you will find alot more info.

http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/categor ... k03-hybrid

you can also find more info about the other turbochargers

Hope it helps

[Gillen]

If you have all the bits fitted for REVO Stage 2 ie. FMIC, larger down pipe, better filter, Forge TIP, uprated DV and also 4 bar fpr...can you just get bolt on a hybrid k03s and get it mapped to suit? Is anything else required?

Not trying to hijack your thread mate, hopefully the answers will be useful to both of us!

[chris meardon]

Not a problem mate my next question would have been similair.

this text is straight from the jbs websit and pretty much answers it

JBS have designed a range of hybrid K03/K03s and K04 hybrid turbo upgrades that are a direct replacement for the OEM units. The JBS 04 and JBS 05 hybrid turbos are capable of producing upto 290 and 320 bhp respectively!

The turbo specifications have been chosen to give maximum gains with just a standard manifold, High flow exhaust and Custom-Code remap. Then with the addition of the JBS collected high flow cast manifold design give even better performance.

While the exact specification of the JBS 04 turbo (K03 Hybrid) is a closely guarded secret, the basic premise is that the housing is K03s, but with custom internals based on the K04.

This allows the turbo to be fitted to an otherwise standard car with just a remap, making it the perfect entry into the world of Big Turbos!

We firmly believe that with just a high flow down pipe and de-cat a totally reliable 260bhp readily available from the JBS 04 turbo (K03 Hybrid).

With similar modifications and the addition of our JBS collected high flow cast manifold, to the JBS 05 Turbo (K04 hybrid), up to 320bhp and 340lb ft will be on tap.

[KennyPOLO_Gti]

Have a look on Seat Cupra Net, a few people have done the hybrid. Some have been great, some have been a disaster, one problem after another. I looked into this wheni had my Polo also and after reading up on what you need to spend and the risk of it having problem i decided not to. one guy threw a conrod with the hybrid set up, remember its not HP that throws a conrod it torque and how its delivered. A hybrid set up and a lot of low down torque coming all at once which puts a lot of stress on conrods where as a big turbo set up is much more progressive and have less strain. Also remeber you will need an uprated clutch/flywheel and better brakes and good cooling (FMIC and maybe WMI). A stage 2 Polo is a very quick car trust me! You are just getting used to it, I have a MK6 Golf GTI now with REVO sage 1 and i still think the wee Polo would have the off the mark! If your Polo is running good the way it is the now (problem free) then I would just enjoy it the way it is

[chris meardon]

Thanks for the response!

The hybrid idea is a nice one if it would mean just a straight bolt on and a tweak in the map. Im strugling to find the price for just the turbo on JBS

I understand it is quick at stage 2 but ideally I need this to keepup/ beat an astra vxr with miltek and remap so around 300bhp. ( i would love for it to sound like that as well)

Me and my mate are planning a ring visit and I want to beat him!

The VXR shares the k04 turbo so I assumed that would be the way to go.

[Gillen]

Just had a look at the cost of getting a hybrid turbo, quite steep! But looked at the k04-001, which is supposedly just bolt on to ours, for <£300 brand new off Ebay...

[Turbomier]

problem with ebay is that you don't know what you are buying...
a friend of mine had a TT225Hp and bought himself a GT28RS from ebay, numbers on the turbo were correct, nothing "seems" wrong with it.
but 2 weeks and 500km later the turbo blew up, he diddn't even push it!
after some investigation we came to the point it was no real Garret turbo, it was a "replica" based model that lookes the same.
only the materials it was made of was pretty crappy...

@Gillen: if you are running 300Hp with a hybrid, it will be to much for the stock injectors so they also need to be replaced IMHO.
also colder spark plugs will be needed. ( normally this is allready needed when you just remap the car, many people don't know it)
if you only change the turbo with the upgrades you said, you will max. be getting 250 - 270Hp maybe to stay a bit safe.
so if you don't want injectors etc, just get a standard K04 and you will be having the same result, but cheaper
otherwise it's useless to bey a hybrid and run the same power as a stock KO4

about the polo again,
i would try to get the max. out of the K03s turbo, you will be having 230 - 240Hp (sometimes even more but it's rare)
you also will get between 350 - 400nM range.
so i bet you would stay side by side with a VXR with remap and Milltek. VXR is heavy, polo is not
if you still don't think you have enough Hp, get another turbo and the rest of the needed upgrades.
this way, you still won't loose any money exept for custom mapping the car again.
the remap from before can't be used anymore. (duh )

and like kenny_pologti have said, it's the torque that kills a car.
so in that point a KO3 hybrid can cause damage bacause the torque comes in extremly agressive at low RPM.
but, this also depends on driving style. some idiots can break a stock engine and other have +350Hp and never have any problems.
i have seen pretty extreme stuff with 1.8T and they are hard to destroy! believe me!

[Gillen]

It's from these guys...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-A3-TT-VW-GOL ... 20b10d9043

They have 4,000 feedback

[chris meardon]

''about the polo again,
i would try to get the max. out of the K03s turbo, you will be having 230 - 240Hp (sometimes even more but it's rare)
you also will get between 350 - 400nM range.
so i bet you would stay side by side with a VXR with remap and Milltek. VXR is heavy, polo is not ''

So to get the max out of the turbo i have at the moment i would need.

stage 2 revo
007p
K&N Filter
Full miltek, cat back or turbo back?
Intercooler??? Which one?
Injectors???? which one?
Plugs??? Which ones?

I need a shopping list I can work my way through and fit it all at the same time

Thats not a huge ammount to be honest compared to a 25k VXR its a bargin

[MarcoPolo]

one guy threw a conrod with the hybrid set up, remember its not HP that throws a conrod it torque and how its delivered. A hybrid set up and a lot of low down torque coming all at once which puts a lot of stress on conrods where as a big turbo set up is much more progressive and have less strain.

That normally happens when the stock exhaust manifold can't shift the exhaust gas fast enough. The resultant back pressure goes off the scale and bends which ever rod is on the compression / firing stroke at the time (usually cyl 3 is the first to bite the dust). "Throwing a rod" out of the block only happens if it detaches itself from the crank, or as a result of shoddy engine building, not using ARP bolts, or as a result of the afore bending being severe enough.

I've seen the same thing happen with the ATP Eliminator kit. The pressure ratio is simply too high for the standard manifold to cope with.

If you fit a big turbo, you need to fit a bigger manifold and downpipe, it's as simple as that.

I am sceptical of 290hp from that JBS "K03S hybrid". It's probably the same as CTS Turbo's K03 hybrid, which is a stock K03 with RS4 K04 compressor, which is the largest of the K04 family. 250hp is your lot from that, as I've seen on my mate's AGU engined MK4 GTI Golf.

Turbomier speaks the truth. Don't waste your time with the stock Borg Warners, or mildly tweaked ones. The money would be far better spent on proper kit, such as a bigger exhaust manifold, IHI, GT28 or Holset HX25 etc etc.

Don't forget, you are comparing a garden hose to a fire hose. Even at the same pressure, the fire hose is pushing a LOT more air, so you can make 300hp from a GT30 at a relaxed 12 psi, or 260 [non s**t] hp from a strung out K04 at 21psi.

It's all about flow in, and flow out.

Plus the other thing with big turbos is it's free traction control. Do you really need full boost by 2500rpm? What does that achieve other than uncontrollable wheel spin? Get the boost in at 3500rpm and hang onto to it until 7500rpm, that's where the real fun is. The 02J transmission can cope with 400hp and 350lb-ft, with some mechanical sympathy, so you've got room to play.

If you go with K03s and K04s, you're getting small increases you'll get used to in an hour. Go balls out with a real turbo and never get bored of it

[chris meardon]

http://www.btnturbo.com/home/default.asp

These guys seem to be really good.

I see where your coming from marco spending around 3k on a full kit to get it right up there in the right way but will it still remain driveable and feel like a normal car to drive just a very very very fast one?

I want it sounding as standard as possible (until i put my foot down) and driving standard

[Turbomier]

@Marco: thanks for clearing that up, youre 100% correct mate

@chris: driveability? a stock KO3s that is tuned out to the max, giving it's full torque at 2500rpm or less,
will drive much more agressive in lower rpm as a bigger turbo like GT28RS or so.
so for daily use it will still be usefull, but it going to be a b***h to get the power down, specially on wet tarmac.
when a GT28RS spools, it will go much faster but it puts his power down on a totally different way.
my idea, if you absolutly want 300Hp, go for one of the mentioned turbokits and do it right the first time.
otherwise, stick to the KO3s you have now and be supprised what it can do with youre car
like i said, with KO3s you will be a match for the VXR... (maybe even faster in lower rpm)

about the tuningquestion you got,
how to get maximum power from a KO3s:

- Forge diverter valve, stock one can't handle alot of pressure (Don't get a Blow off valve because this will give a sensor error from MAF sensor,
you can get it programmed out and remove it, but it has a downside also, youre ESP and cruise controle will also be disabled.

- K&N filter or a BMC CDA airbox, K&N will be just fine because a turbo engine creates it's own atmosphere so cold air feed will not be nessasery.
but every bit helps

-Full miltek exhaust system, downpipe, sportcat and catback, sportcat is needed because otherwise you will also get an emission error from lambda sensor.

-Intercooler, i have the seat sport cupra D IC with Forge piping designed for this IC. pretty cheap and it can flow 350Hp (usefull as you might want more HP later)
commonly used on 1.8 turbo's and it works verry well.
or get a Forge IC kit, but i don't have experience with this kit, other members here do

-Injectors, you can use the S3/TT225 injectors with BAM engine code.

-Spark plugs, get the same type from a Audi S2, they are a bit colder and are perfect for tuned 1.8T's.

-4bar fuel pump, standard fuel pump don't give enough fuel (obvious )

-Turbo inlet pipe (TIP) the stock inlet pipe from S3/TT225 is known to collapse under higher pressure, polo does not have this problem as far as i know but it's more reliable and it has much better flow.

- Forge Throtlle body hose, the standard throtlle body hose is located between the intercooler exit side to inlet manifold.
on a polo there is a T piece with a tube that ends up in a plastic pot just before the dash, it's there to bring a sporty noise into the car. but it uses air from the IC cirquit.
it's useless so get a Forge TB hose and remove all other parts. you will notice more gas response and the turbo will slighty spool quicker.

- R32 MAF sensor (if you still want one), it flows more air wich will be better for higher Hp figures.

- After all the hardware you need the sofware, get a Custom remap, be sure that it's custom and not a "map from the shelf"
do this AFTER the hardware upgrades you got, because they can customise the map more preciesly specially for youre car.
so you sure to get the best result from it.

- TT225 brakes with Ferodo DS2500 brake pads and DOT 5.1 brake fluid.... just because you will need it

after all of this you should be able to get between 235 - 250HP and 350 - 400nM from a KO3s
hope it helps you

ps: it's the second time i wrote this, i pushed the wrong button and the whole page was empty, so i had to start all over again
sometimes, i'm an idiot