Any experiences with power inverters?

Chat about your MKI or MKII Polo (86 and 86F)
mkoprulu
New
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:33 am
Location: Slough / UK

Post by mkoprulu »

amstrange1 wrote:Right, just looked at the power rating on my Dell laptop's charger - it suggests a constant power drain of 70W when the laptop is relying totally on it for its power. It also says up to 1.5A peak @ 240v, which means an instantaneous power of 360W - but that's not the mean power drawn - the fact that we're dealing with AC, as well as the 1.5A being a peak current makes the 70W mean power consumption what we're interested in.


Just my 2p.
Mine's dell as well (latitude d600). Here's the reading on the charger:

Input: 100-240v~1.5A
Output: 19.5v - 3.34A

How i did the calculation was:

240 x 1.5 = 360W needed for the input of the charger.

I heard there's 80% efficiency on the inverters, so;

360 / 0.8 = 450W needed from the output of the inverter to be able to supply necessary power.

So i bought a 600W inverter to make sure.

Is this calculation right?

Why do i need to take the alternator/battery power into consideration? Do they matter?
david burton
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 3082
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:31 pm
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by david burton »

The power consumption of a laptop can't be used to figure out the wattage needed from the AC supply, because there are losses in the power supply converting the AC to DC.

the odd thing here is that at the power supply outputs 19.5 x 3.34 to the laptop - 65W. So the charger must heat up like a beatch if it's actually consuming 360W!

I think there is something about the input that is very vague - 100-240v AC and only one current?... usually a laptop power supply will have 2 current readings - for 100v AC and 240v AC

the one next to me at work says 100v - 240v and 0.95A - 0.55A, outputting 15v and 3A.

so 100v ac is 95W, (40W of heat), and 240v AC is 132W, in that example. 1.5A seems insanely high, probably the 100v ampage?

anyhow, you have the 600W inverter, so you're well away!
amstrange1
Silver Member
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:15 am
Location: Leamington Spa

Post by amstrange1 »

David - the key is realising it's AC, so hence P=VI is giving instantaneous power, not mean power drawn. My Dell laptop actually says on the power pack that it draws 70W continuous power, despite the confusing 100-240v and ~1.5A rating.

This 70W figure is all we're interested in from the laptop side of things. AC to DC conversion and transformer losses are irrelevant - as we know the power pack is drawing the 70W anyway. If my rough calculations were right, the inverter can draw up to 140W (and probably more) from the alternator and only need to provide 70W.

Also bear in mind, that if the battery on the car's healthy, that can make up any shortfall in power that the alternator can supply. Basically what I'm saying is - the inverter should be more than capable of powering the laptop!
GroovyCarrot
Sponsor
Posts: 2305
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:35 am
Location: Saffron Walden, Essex

Post by GroovyCarrot »

mkoprulu wrote:Why do i need to take the alternator/battery power into consideration? Do they matter?
Well, that 600w isn't going to magic itself out of the cigarrette lighter socket, it needs to come from somewhere. The standard alternator and battery on a mk2 are pretty pathetic anyway, not like they were designed with large amounts of electrical gadgets in mind :)
amstrange1
Silver Member
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:15 am
Location: Leamington Spa

Post by amstrange1 »

A 600W power inverter won't draw 600W the whole time - that's simply the maximum power it can deliver, assuming that it can draw sufficient power from the car. If you're just using your laptop, you should be fine - however, don't use the inverter to charge/power the laptop for long periods of time with the engine off...
mkoprulu
New
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:33 am
Location: Slough / UK

Post by mkoprulu »

nah mate, never with the engine turned off. I haven't touched my battery since i bought my car 6 months/10000 miles ago and i don't know when it was changed last. So i don't trust it at all without the car running.

Then again, i'm very paranoid with batteries so i even turn off my radio if i'm sitting in the car with the engine turned off. Hell, i even take my mobile out of the car kit! :D

It feels strong though. (i.e. interior light/dashboard light not dimming after the engine is turned off.
GroovyCarrot
Sponsor
Posts: 2305
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:35 am
Location: Saffron Walden, Essex

Post by GroovyCarrot »

Doing better than mine then.. everything dims when the alternator goes off, and after an hour or so playing the radio with the engine off, the battery's so far gone that it won't turn the starter. Need to get it replaced really, but it's just another expense that I could do without at the moment..
david burton
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 3082
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:31 pm
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by david burton »

amstrange1 wrote:David - the key is realising it's AC, so hence P=VI is giving instantaneous power, not mean power drawn. My Dell laptop actually says on the power pack that it draws 70W continuous power, despite the confusing 100-240v and ~1.5A rating.

This 70W figure is all we're interested in from the laptop side of things. AC to DC conversion and transformer losses are irrelevant - as we know the power pack is drawing the 70W anyway. If my rough calculations were right, the inverter can draw up to 140W (and probably more) from the alternator and only need to provide 70W.

Also bear in mind, that if the battery on the car's healthy, that can make up any shortfall in power that the alternator can supply. Basically what I'm saying is - the inverter should be more than capable of powering the laptop!
The 70W is the laptop consumption I reckon. So the transformer does need to be taken into account, hence the input / output stats on the power supply to the laptop having different power consumptions. The output will be about 70W, but the input will be a lot more due to losses.

240v is the RMS value, so P=VI is still valid.
Tahrey1043
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 5184
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:15 am
Location: Birmingham! Enjoys: The pseudo-G-Smiles provided by a 1.6 Megane Sport valver...
Contact:

Post by Tahrey1043 »

You really should take note of what your alternator and battery can put out, because in the world of electrics, you dont get something for nothing - it's not magic, no matter how indistinguishable from it this sufficiently advanced technology may appear. The supply has to be there for you to take it - like i said before, it's likely your inverter will draw far more power, and for a lot longer, than the lighter ever would. 600W is quite a lot of power in terms of 12v electrics - comparable to a slightly wimpy starter motor, the output available at idle, or yourself cycling up a steep hill in a slightly too high gear. It's 50 amps, which is a hell of a lot of current.

Besides its not just the alternator but the polo batteries aren't really that hardcore (and in some cases as we've seen before on UKP, the wiring..). They're not designed to take a lot of a beating, because in normal use, they don't get one.... they'll be starting the engine (750w for a few seconds maybe 5 times a day), running the ignition and fuel pumps (?? not many watts..), radio (maybe 50w) and powering the lights (5w each for side and tail-lamps, max of 60w each for indicators / headlights / brakelights / fogs, say maybe 50% of the time). Plus apart from the starter all those drains usually only occur when the engine's on.

before you know it...... snowdon!
Well, OK, the foot of snowdon, and when you find it, you'll be in the town of Llanberis. But as a nonspecific example, it stands.

What i thought was when you plug an inverter into the lighter socket/battery, it drains only what the typical lighter would drain right?
nope, sorry :) anyway, as above, how long does the lighter run for? unless you have five people smoking a lot of ciggies and none of them have any knowledge on chaining them, it's not going to be anywhere near as continuous as the inverter's demand.

Anyway, the whole purpose of the inverter is to convert the 12v dc electricity from the battery to 240v ac so that the house plugs can be replicated in the car right?
Yep, that's entirely true... but again - no free rides. Due to transformer losses (inductive heating and the like), etc, the car has to provide more power than you're actually using. In addition it needs to convert DC to AC, the circuitry for which will provide further drain. And as Power = Volts x Amps, as your voltage has dropped by 20 but the power demand remains the same, the current has to increase in kind..... which leads to even further losses because the resistance of the wiring is comparitively larger to a low-voltage, high current system than a high voltage low current one.

Hope that hasnt fried your brain but im still hot on basic electronic theory, from now until about six hours after the exam.


PS the inverter replicates house plugs but bear in mind that even house plugs have a certain limit on how much drain you can pull through them (typically 13A is the maximum legal fuse value - or a little over 3kW - per socket, and about 30A for the entire house). The limits on the inverter are typically MUCH lower.
And also, your laptop's plug is just going to convert the AC back to DC again! Further losses there. If there's any way you can find to get hold of a circuit that does a direct DC-DC conversion (particularly, if your laptop takes 12V or less), as seen in all those in-car DVD and console rigs, then go for that instead.
david burton
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 3082
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:31 pm
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by david burton »

I agree

you would be far better off getting a cigarette lighter 12v to 19.5v adaptor. This means no DC to AC to DC losses.

These can be found brand new for about 40 quid, so 2nd hand on ebay is anyone's guess!
Tahrey1043
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 5184
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:15 am
Location: Birmingham! Enjoys: The pseudo-G-Smiles provided by a 1.6 Megane Sport valver...
Contact:

Post by Tahrey1043 »

well there'll still be some loss through that, as any voltage up-conversion needs an AC stage (reducing voltage can be done 100% DC), but I'd lay money on it being far more efficient (and also, less dangerous) than a full inverter rig.
mkoprulu
New
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:33 am
Location: Slough / UK

Post by mkoprulu »

guys you're all scraring me... I've got my inverter for two days now and still couldn't get the courage to plug it in... What's the worst that could happen? If i plug it directly to the car's battery, only the battery would be in danger of frying right? I suppose i could risk that then... I don't want to burn all the wiring in the car or the fuse box or such.
Post Reply